Dark Forest edit

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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by EvilGrins » Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:16 am

Nelsona wrote:SOLVED - read again - MAP ENDED BY ARACHNE
Humor me, how exactly did she get up there?

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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by Nelsona » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:28 pm

She wasn't first at mountain. Drimacus entered through teleport. Later he started groaning for help. He was blasted down by last Warlord spawned. Arachne went there being triggered by Drimacus. She sniped Warlord and raced to that head with shining eyes. In that position, me, human I had path to end, Arachne found that as well. In a couple of seconds she reached at last teleporter - Bot can use and is interested about Teleporters being almost always short ways. At exiting from teleporter I slaped paths as in CTF-Coret but using PainPath (:D is painfull if you fall from there). With a small attention to not break path I added other combination LE-PP-LE linked with previous. If path is not broken, Bot will get mad to follow that way as long as Game-Core is pushing her mind.
Example via Editor how are paths there:
Lasts_Paths.jpg
Those reds were added but they aren't used (only if Bot wants to return and is not the case), blues are desired combination.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Nelsona on Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by Nelsona » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:36 pm

Now you know what I want ? To setup a better A.I. when action begins - in spawn-room.
I think I'll add a small add-on to make them to camp (like reading messages). Normally they skating at door runing in place trying to start hunting. The door is still closed and they don't look good trying to drill the door.

I have some ideea but ... BlockedPath make them to run in place (default MH). I'm thinking to see a kinda FearSpot if helps. Usually if they are affraid will freeze. I wanna see if FearSpot will block AttractionCode. I'll add info later.
Last edited by Nelsona on Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by Nelsona » Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:24 pm

Proved and confirmed (Of course I have 2 things, 1 good - 2 bad)

If is used a FearSpot around door (ignoring a bit stupid Epic prescription header) this one can keep them relaxed at touching it. With less words, they take a break. Once triggered the door, dispatcher will trigger this FearSpot having the same TAG as door (initially True to Next value False). Result ? No more fear, GO ! Solved Intelligent move.

Second, I checked though maps some of them (older), you know... Tentacle started to piss me off, no ... I'm angry now. In state waiting is queried an animation which not exist in that Mesh and also in other states, lol. I have to slap other mesh - grrr, this isn't cute.

I'll think at inventories and maybe a few aditional paths into the forest.

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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by EvilGrins » Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:13 pm

Kinda cool a bot can get up there. It's tricky enough for me, I had to get jumpboots and not use them before I got back up there.

The 1 problem I see with this is for players who are die hard "MUST KILL EVERYTHING ON MAP BEFORE EXITING" if a bot also on the map got up to the stone kitty's head and exited it would tend to make that kinda player very annoyed.

Positives & negatives, I suppose.

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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by Hermskii » Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:31 pm

Perfect point. It is a no win scenario because there is always one player that wants to take their sweet and kill everything first and another who wants to finish first leaving monster still alive.

Maybe this is a map making learning moment. What do we know?

Maps should require all monsters in certain areas to be dead before giving access to the final area. That would resolve this issue right?

I should make a list of givens when it come to player preferences to map making.
~Peace~

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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by EvilGrins » Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:20 am

I would make it more preferential, the bots can't access the exit but they have the full range of the map. That extra bit to get to the exit that Nelsona setup that makes it so the bots could get up to it, that should go bye bye.

Moving right along...

Current intro messages are
Enter the Forest of the Dead
Visit us at UM
You must hunt down all,
First you must goto the white rock...
DESTROY ALL MONSTERS!!

Thoughts on new intro messages
Step out into the Dark Forest...
The way to safety is on the kitty's head.
??? (not sure yet)
First, proceed to the White Rock.
DESTROY ALL MONSTERS NOT ON YOUR TEAM!!

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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by Nelsona » Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:29 am

Ok, if you talk about a few logic things then I support some:
- Bot will race to end before to kill all monsters ? I can place such FearSpots to keep them busy in place until way is unlocked ThingFactories have more items than counted by counters, I decreased values because are pointless;
- Minilords - From me these are craps as the whole BPak. Why ? Killed (died ?) function is not properly coded, you cannot see any message if you kill one. A good eye will see probably even "CountMonsters" function from MH without to work when one dies, also I have doubts to not stuck something at a moment since is messed such an important function. With less words, trash out;
- TeamMonsters - I'm not very interested about them as long as they are the mostly campers and nothing fixed in their functions just copied from ScriptedPawn, a TeamCannon is just a TeamCannon doesn't matter the suit - they won't be counted as monsters in player's HUD because they aren't monsters and neither Bots. I'll bet that some players the mostly will kill them;
- MonsterEnd ? This one can be turned off by default. It can be activated by a counter if all monsters are killed. I'm not sure if is a real problem 2-3 monsters lost into the forest, but is solvable.
- Avoid Spreading of monsters through the forest when they start to be chickens during combat ? Bot hunting them will be blocked in forest out of paths. We can set HomeBase(s) nearby paths so monsters will stay and fight. Recommended classes for such case ? Nothing bigger than a SkaarjBerserker (not really SkaarjBerserker).
Let me think after playing a few rounds at other issues ... Ah, got it - those boxes at begining (I think there are chances for Engine.Decoration.SkinnedFrag bla bla), irelevant, map is already a hard job for engine I don't need to see it punched more, keep going...
Last edited by Nelsona on Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by EvilGrins » Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:11 pm

Nelsona wrote:- Bot will race to end before to kill all monsters? I can place such FearSpots to keep them busy in place until way is unlocked
Fear spots? You can spook a bot?? Interesting.

Overall, not necessary here. there's too many monsters between the exit and players for worrying about a bot getting to the exit too soon. It's everytime I've played the map and the way would be clear, there's still like 50 random monsters on the map you can track down; plus on my edit I added an extra in a very remote location.

Denying a bot access to even getting to the exit should be enough. As it stands, and I've checked, any player (bot or not) can access the exit at any point in the map if they can just get up on the kitty's head.
Nelsona wrote:- Minilords - From me these are craps as the whole BPak. Why ? Killed function is not properly coded, you cannot see any message if you kill one.
I've noticed that... and it is annoying. Fortunately this map it's not a requirement to kill all, but still annoying. Most of the counters on the map are a bit screwy. Like you fight to each stage and it tells you to goto the next even though all the monsters from the previous stage are still popping out of the creature factories. Oi!
Nelsona wrote:TeamMonsters - I'll bet that some players the mostly will kill them;
Probably. Like you said, it's just a team cannon that can walk around... though wait until my edit is done before you make a final call on that. By my reckoning they're there to keep some of the heat off players. Gave them insanely high health; usually when most of the map is cleared they're fighting some of the harder to kill types off in a corner somewhere...

...and hitting F5, to view others on your team, also shows the TeamMonsters. Not always, and not at first, but usually about 15 minutes into the map. Kinda cool, kinda weird.
Nelsona wrote:- MonsterEnd ? This one can be turned off by default. It can be activated by a counter if all monsters are killed. I'm not sure if is a real problem 2-3 monsters lost into the forest, but is solvable.
It's more a player issue. I've played on a bunch of different MH servers and a lot of them, not all but most, have a real bug up their butts regarding players who "rush a map". Defined as any player that goes for the exit before every tiny last possible living thing on the map that isn't a player or a bot hasn't been killed yet.
Nelsona wrote:- Avoid Spreading of monsters through the forest when they start to be chickens during combat ? Bot hunting them will be blocked in forest out of paths. We can set HomeBase(s) nearby paths so monsters will stay and fight.
The biggest in the Skaarj class on the map is the SkaarjLord, or technically the Warlords.

Well, actually, it's the Queen. Actually something on that point I'll want to bring up to you later Nelsona. There's something on the map that doesn't work. Save it for later, when I've got screenshots to show you what I mean.

Even without "retreating" monsters there are monsters all over the place. On the further edges there's a bunch of mantas and flies, with hyped up health & attacks. same side of the map as your starting point but on the opposite end there's about 50 to 70 Mercenaries. Lots of elements you don't need to beat to win the map but designed to attack anyone that goes poking around.

Kind of a prime example of the old adage "don't wander far from the yellow brick road". Have to admit, I was tempted to edit the actual road on the map to gold because of that.
Nelsona wrote:those boxes at begining
I deleted them from my edit. Left a few and the table, just to shoot something while waiting for the door to open, but I completely removed that big chest in the corner the weapons are under.

I left the bucket by the window, really only because to look out the window you need to stand on it.

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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by Nelsona » Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:57 pm

EvilGrins wrote:
Nelsona wrote:those boxes at begining
I deleted them from my edit. Left a few and the table, just to shoot something while waiting for the door to open, but I completely removed that big chest in the corner the weapons are under.
I did the same.

One more problem - good point here, EG. General map psychology = low level. Map is surprise at first play, later any player will anticipate-know the action and will avoid big threats (as usually, chickens - that's why I respect EXU stuff). By example those Mercs, I simply did not see them in more than a few sessions. From me, I setup an ambush nearby Skaarj area, until Skaarj are going to be killed, Mercs shows up as backup runing to the battlefield. How ? This is a part of "Monster Pathing" engaged by MAP itself not only the mod played. In the plain field pathing is a piece of cake. There is a kinda pathing practice session for novice mappers in all this story. Can be defined "S" or "Z" roads to gain maximum of battle-noise.
Mercs (doesn't matter their strength) can attack player if they are triggered and if they can find a path to player, else if they are affraid, will run to their real Home if exist one. Aaaand, their Home is into the primary battlefield - with Fear or No fear they go to skaarj area with any price.
EvilGrins wrote:Fear spots? You can spook a bot?? Interesting.
As I described the problem in first area, "FearSpot" is very functional if is triggered later to be turned off - no aditional work needed, they are just attempting to do something and give up quickly. When Fear is gone, attack with full power.

My only problem here is rating difficulty. With simple MH mod and poor regens is a pretty hard one. With better regens and a few mad Bots is not a big challenge at all - is just ... so different. I think I prefer monsters to come to me. Computing default creature and the time spent for hunting a target I think they can succesfully reach at first area right near first door where are placed all weapons and ammo. This might be subject for friendly type MH where all monsters are an unique team against hunters and a bloody battle. I'm not very decided.

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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by EvilGrins » Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:20 pm

Oh, it gets worse... or better depending how you look at it.

The link at the top of this thread is the first of this map I played, and the one I decided to edit. There are, in fact, at least 3 other maps. Two of them have ONS Vehicles on them ported from ut2004.

I didn't like them much, as the .zip didn't come with a ReadMe explaining how to drive them.

Unfortunately I can't link you to them as I can't access medor's files section while I'm at work.

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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by Hitman » Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:46 pm

The Vehicles work, but only of-line so i deleted them

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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by Nelsona » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:31 am

Here I have my thoughts related to pawns. I was interested to set a MH controller ready to encounter more pawn proto-types. Later I changed my mind because of a few factors:
- Creatures from HUD counted are ScriptedPawn - if I'm deciding for others too, I have to see what kinda freaks are involved and this is nasty since some of them might be a crappy messed useless hybrid;
- main Function need a very carefull rework, else results are garbled;
- some bad pawns with important functions stucked will bug controller at certain mesages (and not only there) - like flockpawns - Only a rework of a replacement for this creature will show: "Player killed a Bird1"; I'm guessing this nasty pawn has a wrong configuration by default and will trigger engine to crash in death-timer (I still don't understand why they messed with a timer when creature died because is not a carcass is a creature stucked but with a timer working). I reworked a native function with a UScript one to avoid crashes.
- For vehicles ? My interest in 0. Are they ScriptedPawns ? Not sure. Are they Bots ? Not sure. Are they Cannons ? Not sure. We don't have in Botpack any example in how to debate Vehicle A.I. problem. These should come with their own game-core.

MonsterHunt is dedicated for monsters not for pawn-vehicle, pawn-projectiles, pawn-cakes, pawn-spoon, pawn-phone and so on. That's why I prefer stuff to match game-type unless an admin has more free time to guard server when gets stucked and to lose players.

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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by Dr.Flay » Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:46 am

Mr.Loathsome has tried to tame the scripted pawns, maybe his mods can help
http://www.ecoop.tk/load/utspfix/1-1-0-42
and perhaps his birds are fixed ?
http://www.ecoop.tk/load/newbirds_nalibats/1-1-0-49
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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by Nelsona » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:14 pm

Loathsome reworked original game-types to support monster presence in a better way than defaults. I have reworked triggered by this ideea only 2 (CTF and DM), because I wanted complete kill-messages, sprees, annoying UT suicide message when a monster kill player (is not a suicide is a dumbness of Epic's pathetic coding), aggressivity against Bots in the same way as for me, human, bot minding more external threats rather than racing like idiot only to gain enemy flag, recovering flag even from trees (if possible), extended translocations, etc... MH is a different one ruled by fair play from my side.
Also Loathsome did some Flockpawns to have more options but... let me quote some attitudes.
ScriptedPawn aka Monster:

Code: Select all

function damageAttitudeTo(pawn Other)
{
	local eAttitude OldAttitude;
	
	if ( (Other == Self) || (Other == None) || (FlockPawn(Other) != None) )
		return; //code return which means 0 response to these attacks: self attack, none attack, FlockPawn attack
......
ScriptedPawn by default won't respond at FlockPawn only pushed from game-mutator.
Bot (UT Bot)

Code: Select all

function bool SetEnemy( Pawn NewEnemy )
{
	local bool result, bNotSeen;
	local eAttitude newAttitude, oldAttitude;
	local float newStrength;
	local Pawn Friend;

	if (Enemy == NewEnemy)
		return true;
	if ( (NewEnemy == Self) || (NewEnemy == None) || (NewEnemy.Health <= 0) || NewEnemy.IsA('FlockPawn') ) //No attack these probably accesed none at Brute force code
		return false;
......
Is not a real need to reexplain external tweaks to push monster in combat versus Bot. Monster is hard to be convinced to fight against a decoration pawn and neither Bot. These are forced and need other things to make them to respond out of attitude code.
For me recreating some troopers which aren't ScriptedPawn are pointless. Why ? ScriptedPawn can fight, can make noise. Why I need the same picture and a different class and new loaded functions for other game-code. Is a need to load engine more ? I want to gain speed and to execute tweaks not to waste resources and stability.
If you consider a great thing these moving decorations I can slap a super class and other assumed monsters child classes looking like default monster. This kinda crap has been already coded meaning "XPawn" - just locked a MH server when such "monsters" killed some original monsters. I don't see a purpose for other kind of warlord fighting identically like original one and 0 code fixed just a cheap copy under other parent class to ruin servers. Credit for such works goes to DMH supposed clan having only craps for MH not maps, yeah I have even confirmations and that's why I know what I'm saying.

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