Dark Forest edit

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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by Hermskii » Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:01 pm

You know, there are lots of MH and CTF maps that would convert nicely to DM maps but the spawn points would need to be moved first of all.
~Peace~

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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by EvilGrins » Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:47 am

Hermskii wrote:You know, there are lots of MH and CTF maps that would convert nicely to DM maps but the spawn points would need to be moved first of all.
I was thinking that. Never tried that before but it can't be that hard.
Nelsona wrote:Need to complete paths more ? Let me know.
TOO MUCH PATHS! TOO MUCH PATHS!!
Image

Okay, the moment I started your edit every single monster, even the one on the cliff that isn't supposed to do anything unless someone is fool enough to go up there, started following the paths you placed on the map.

The TeamMonsters started moving immediately, without being attacked, and they didn't bother to pick up their weapons!

Admittedly, the bots got into things quick... but that's the only thing that worked right.

The screenshot above is from not even 1 minute on the map. How, and why, did the mercenaries get all the way to the path in so little time?!?

Why is everything on the map following your pathing, and not just the bots? I only wanted pathing for the bots!

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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by Nelsona » Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:25 am

You did not pay attention at what I said.

Cannons.
As I said is a hard load in map, they cannot be triggered like this by hundreds of monsters. SEE MH-LOSTSOULS and compare numbers. Feel free to remove some triggers Trigger4 and the nearest other one. Check such a battle in a smaller map and compare results. Also just keep in mind, these TeamMonsters Cannons aren't reacting without any stimulus speaking about their attitude toward default monster, in other words are good to sleep well.

Monsters
If monster is chicken will run away in forest. If bot hunt them will be lost and then are necessary guzillions of paths to recover Bot Support. I decided to send them into a battle zone if they are chickens. And they are in default MH, because each class has fear by other. They won't be so interested in cannons, simply are affraid of Titans and others much stronger. I placed HomeBase near Red Mountain. If you don't want that, delete HomeBase and rebuild paths (buton in editor), probably will see them spreaded as heck in all forest when start to have fear. And... trust me they have a lot of fear as you see.

Another simple way, don't remove HomeBase just edit/remove that Tag - Ms_Forest, put EG_Forest and see how it is.

In other A.I. control MH prototype, absolute all of those able to find roads are going to hunt in start area to kill players not runing to Home. Feel free to Deal with NONE HomeBase and see what I mean.

You can even toy with different settings. For me map was pretty relevant. Look here, they don't run anywhere, just fight:
Just_Fight.JPG
Also I wasn't worried for their migration. Bots will go there soon and later will see the some battle noise including patrols reaching and having chances to enter the battle triggered by damage.
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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by EvilGrins » Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:40 pm

Keep in mind I can edit maps but I don't know how to do everything or what everything is. So, if I didn't understand what you said it could be I glossed over stuff that didn't make sense to me.

Here's 1 of the BIGGEST problems:
The monster in the cabin on top of the cliff, put there so if people having beaten the map went looking for other monsters they hadn't killed yet, is now fully active on the map the moment the game starts... it's a GrimReaper. You may recall my fondness for this uber·powerful freak as not only are its attacks devestating, it generates Skullheads (a self·replicating monster) as a weapon:
Image
I often, though not always, play MH without that thing that stops the monsters from fighting each other.

About 5 to 10 minutes into your edit, the GrimReaper & its Skullheads have killed every single boss on the map and most of the other monsters!

Even without that, having the GrimReaper loose from the beginning means its generating Skullheads. The thing can literally flood the entire map with those things in a very tiny span of time, creating a population greater than all of the monsters that were on the map to begin with.

Which in terms of available memory, makes the map impossible to play. It all gets very choppy very fast.

As we discussed, I didn't have a problem with the monsters running away. It's called Monster "Hunt", I do like to actually go hunting for them... as do many other players. Your edit has made it Monster "Armageddon" where all monsters are attacking at once.

They're not even waiting for you to approach their territory. The mercenaries which are on the far side of the map, that normally stay there until someone stumbles across them, start swarming across the map immediately. The bosses that protect certain areas until approached are now leaving their areas and attacking from the very beginning.

This kind of kills the whole "finish area then move to the next area" setup the map has. Even without the GrimReaper and Skullheads, everything is attacking the starting cabin from the moment the map starts. Players or bots don't need to travel the map as everything is encroaching on the players starting spawnpoints.

Also, the TeamMonsters keep getting stuck in certain places now. They can't get out of them, I'm assuming those are your new trigger points, and all they do is spin around and generate endless copies of their starting weapon:
Image

I let the map play, as it was too choppy for me to move in about 5 minutes, up to 15 minutes. Any longer and the map would've been so bogged down with Skullheads UT would've crashed from a memory overload or something.

For sitting back and watching it play, this map is okay. For playing, not so much. Configuration of your edit makes it impossible to play at all.

I have to ask: Did you just put pathing on my updated version without trying to play it? When you originally setup pathing it was on the original map I edited from. Did you try my version or just put the same pathing on it and send it back?

Ideally, if you're willing to have another go at this, is go back to my edit I sent you to upgrade and only put bot pathing on it. Don't change monster attitudes, don't alter TeamMonsters, for the love of the Gods don't do whatever it was you did that got the GrimReaper all over the place from map·start, and leave the zone around the stone tree...

...it took me forever to figure out where the Deemer Fireworks spawned on the map. I got used to it being in that 1 place.

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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by Nelsona » Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:51 pm

Okay, debating small technical details.
If some mutator is replacing removing some weps is possible to spawn some infinity craps - I warned you about TeamMonster package. I couldn't see TeamMonsters spawning infinite weps playing pure MH. Also I tested map as CoopGame. Perfect ! Without any timer looks like TeamMonsters get mad at anybody (is not a team-game) so they kill everything that moves.

For MH without add-ons (and without SYF - StopYourFighting - using hard tick) I tested it normally, and I don't see a big challenge except Pond Monster.

In my version action is more cute, is simply a noisy battle as I considered good to have. If this is not OK then open map in Editor and fix a few things:
- remove tag from Homebase actor;
- Modify troopers from bHateWhenTrigered to False;
- See actor (trigger with Ms_Forest Event) put Event None (look for it based on EVENT NAME) - in case of troubles turn it InitiallyActive False;
- See actor (trigger with event A_Trop - or such) put Event None - the same inactive;
- Or simply go to that super duper hero and remove his tag - put his sightradius 100 (probably aggressivity -1) - you can even block him in a box, :D;
- input in console Log "set ScriptedPawn bHateWhenTriggered false";
- Save it - Enjoy new sleepy 0 action.
In my other copy I'll set other kinda War_Spirit because I have automatically spawn protection, is simple, if you are killed, you won't be attacked anymore, so you are protected, LOL.

As for what I set into map. I downloaded your map, I opened it in Editor, I did a fast check around. I fixed first mover, some triggers wrong set, and I started working:
- Friendly Attitude for TeamTroopers and bHateWhenTriggered (by ScriptedPawn class);
- 2 triggers set a la MySelf for engage full Hate in all forest (works depending on CPU and MH played);
- Assigned Patroling - order ordertag PatrolPoints ignition
- pathed well for good A.I. travel;
- Small things at Factories;
- added a new end and switch them to engage Bot into the desired one (is an order thing) - set it null, just to fool Bot;
- Added WayPoint for Bots in Wood-Cutter house - buton can be triggered or not depending on action - There I should solve problem with a trigger but you wanted only Bot fight not mission solved so I let them just to run around.
- rebuild paths - Save As ... PT.unr - pack in simple zip format;
- upload here - EG cry because map works totally different now :)).

You see, EG ? People need pawns and dumb settings and they cannot setup a big war just bug engine useless - simple making a map to works like lotery in a server OK in other Not leaded by presumptions not logic. I can set 60 Monsters to make a hell player's life just with a bit of love. Probably this was only Level 1 in setting up a good fight. Can you manage Level 2 ?

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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by EvilGrins » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:17 pm

EG cry because map is pointless now, and unplayable. In less than 2 minute of your edit, everything attacking at once kills all free memory.

Could I fix from your directions? Maybe. It would be simpler if you went from my original edit and just added bot-pathing like I asked.

I've got a splitting headache now and am too tired to try anyway.

Grrr.

Everything attacking at once wouldn't be so bad on a much smaller map... but this one is huge. That amount of space eats up memory on its own. Full scale war as your edit provides? My computer, not just UT, locked up twice. I got a few plays out of the thing but only in spectator mode, there's not enough free memory in your edit for me to play on it myself.

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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by Nelsona » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:28 am

Interesting that eating memory thing. I can even play with them not only spectating. If you want things more simply then there is one without too much noise in here:
MH-EG-DARKFOREST_PT1.zip
Pick your desired level. I prefer the previous.
Now you see what's means a map huge, more monsters, and especially with monsters done for Sp and Coop games which were supposed to be played usng 20-30 monsters/level ? This is MH, my friend, a lousy at once with stuff done for it. Is not very possible to release too much creativity because ... factors. When I spoke about some map with overdozen monsters people told that I'm mad. Now things were properly set without insane monster visibility and 0 paths. Things weren't very cute, right ?
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Last edited by Nelsona on Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by EvilGrins » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:13 pm

Dunno about cute, but I'll give this other edit a try and get back to you.

I really enjoyed the stages, however flawed, on the original and tried to keep to that. Everything at once, monsters that normally don't attack unless you violate their territory... stuff like that kept memory from getting drained too much. Pure chaos can be fun, look at all those variants of MH-Brutes][ I've edited, but they work better on smaller maps.

Initial Impression:No GrimReaper or Mercs unless you go looking for them, good.

Seems somewhat better than original as in monsters don't appear all at once, I didn't see any Krall until after the Skaarj were dead. Cool.

One oddity, saw Behemoths on the map sooner than expected. Normally they don't even appear on the map until after the BossBrute & BossKrall are dead. That was unexpected.

Also, one problem:
Image
Where are the Warlords?!?

Got up there and there were no Warlords. That's either just a glitch of play or they're gone.

I gotta goto work today so don't have time to poke around in UnrealEd... but I miss the Warlords. Saw the BossWarlord earlier.

Also, the GiantSlith that fires nukes... didn't see him at all. Again, maybe he ran away... I dunno.

Bot-pathing was great.

I like it... but with work can't do a full review until probably Sunday.

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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by Nelsona » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:42 pm

I'll see if something is not lost. But I got some trouble as well. In mod played by me I simply let monster instigator to do damage for itself like players (I have some reason for this). As long as that Big guy fire nasty projectiles it has all chances to commit a suicide runing into blast radius. As I know so far, Warlords are launched by a trigger right in mountain entrance. Jumping very high will mess it up (you can adjust collision height ex: 90 100 - check cylinder ). I'll look at that and I'll tell you what needs to be changed.

Ooops you remembered me by other thing (how the heck I failed that important thing ?), checking randomly for BSP holes. I'm curious about areas near rocks and RedMountain. Such a crap might swallow monsters. I'll look for them

Erata
1) I think was too drunk and I forgot to copy data from old ThingFactory, is done now. You can re-download it now. Tell me others. Are you sure about Bots and finishing mission problem ?
2) Big Slith aka Pond Monster is there in water swiming with fishies probably was self murdered by its own Warshells, LOL.

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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by EvilGrins » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:59 pm

No BSP that I've noticed... in any version, so far. Bots do not finish the map, actually when the cabin on the far end opens bots don't even go in there to hit the switch that opens the tunnel to the teleport that goes up to the Warlord's roost.

I'm cool with that. Let's real people to stop being lazy and get some stuff done.

Only other thing I'd noted, which I could fix easily enough, is the TeamMonster inside the starting cabin often gets hung up on the table in there. Mostly chairs, only noticed when I let bots play the map for testing purposes; unlike me they don't shoot up the furniture. Occasionally a Titan throws a boulder in there and that destroys the table, but I'll probably just remove a couple chairs and see if that fixes the issue.

On your first edit one thing I did love was the TeamMonsters running around the map as a team of their own, mainly hunting down all the Skullheads the GrimReaper launched. Without that, and I may try to fix this myself Sunday, when I'm home next, I'd like to try and get the TMs near the cabin outside to wait until attacked before running off. Ideally I'd want players to fight the map, TMs should be support.

As it is, if I load the map in spectator mode, with no bots, the TMs can pretty much clear the map on their own.

Kinda toying with swapping them out for the SkaarjBerserkerTMs I had on it originally.

Anywho, nothing I can do about any of that until Sunday.

Oh, so you know, once I got the map back from you I renamed it again: MH-EGN-DarkForest.

EG is obviously me, you can guess what the N is for...
Nelsona wrote:Big Slith aka Pond Monster is there in water swiming with fishies probably was self murdered by its own Warshells, LOL.
Yeah, he's still there... but he can't kill himself or any of the other Slith. THUNDERBOLT made all Slith on the map immune to the 'deemers that BIGslith fires... but not other redeemers players might use. Pretty cool, huh?

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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by medor » Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:31 am

1) I think was too drunk and I forgot to copy data from old ThingFactory, is done now. You can re-download it now.
May be i drunk to but the file is yet missing

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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by Nelsona » Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:25 am

medor wrote:Quote:1) I think was too drunk and I forgot to copy data from old ThingFactory, is done now. You can re-download it now.

May be i drunk to but the file is yet missing
Medor, can you stop getting unfinished things ?
What exactly you did not understand ? Map has full link in first post. This aditional file means ONLY MAP pathed by me at EG's request, other files weren't a need to be uploaded to load forum since first post contains them already. Even Greenie is now in my system from update link posted a bit later. Mind entire thread and see what we talking about here.
You can even come with some stuff to solve it if you need such simple fixable things. We toy with Bots, EG wants to see new things, I want good movers and trashes out, and we have to improve this, so is not finished yet.

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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by Nelsona » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:12 am

EvilGrins wrote:Yeah, he's still there... but he can't kill himself or any of the other Slith. THUNDERBOLT made all Slith on the map immune to the 'deemers that BIGslith fires... but not other redeemers players might use. Pretty cool, huh?
Highly doubts to not see this killed by itself without protecting-mutators. Watch what kinda imunity has this freak:
Self_Damaged.JPG
Is just a normal Slith reaction at corrodation (removed by me in my mods - I'll explain the logic later). Is not protected at other damage at all and we don't have too much corrodation in here, it can blow up itself even if projectile hits some pawn (Biterfish) exploding. But... Nvm.
Why I removed these monster-cheats ? Simple. If some damage zone kills players why I need monsters in there ? Who is such idiot to jump down for them ? In other instance a map by TheDane started with Biorifle and later encountering Sliths and null suport to gain PulseGun unlocked - cool ideea with a single exception, OUT of basic logic. Because of such interesting mapping failures I load player ... and Bot (with zero errors at "RateSelf" - read again) with weps, done.
As a mapping info. Damage taken by Warshell is called "RedeemerDeath" not "Corroded".
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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by EvilGrins » Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:27 am

Nelsona,

Kinda jumped the gun, posted an ongoing progress thread over at ut99.org, one of the mappers there did an edit and told me to send it to you.

I haven't looked at it yet · http://www.ut99.org/viewtopic.php?p=59579#p59579

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Re: Dark Forest edit

Post by Nelsona » Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:00 am

See ? The man speak about CreatureFactories not ThingFactories because these are creatures not things. Being a massive map, me or you can put some paths (probably at engine's limit) to make Bot to hunt in all corners and to insist a bit into the middle, yes 6 Waypoints could be desired number. Meh... Higor told about one (or two) unreachable(s) path(s) at Red Mountain. I'm not sure about this, DOH. My bots (original stock Bots) Can End my version (I'll do some changes to improve action). More about finishing this map using Bots I think I already described in Bot Pathing section. If there is a special geometry, a cute thing might be placed in MyLevel and Bot will listen to rules, even a monster can follow my rules.

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